Curse

Kyp Jade · Feb 04, 2008, 05:41 PM // 17:41

The idea of capture points as a map objective has great potential. In practice however it is extremly limited. Im going to use forgotten shrines as example since most of the time everyone skips antechamber anyway.

To win capture points, you have to cap shrines, not kill. In this sense and this sense only, it becomes a map requiring skill and tactics on par with relic runs.

How do you win this situation? There are several options.

You can move your entire team around in one giant mob, trying to steamroll the split of the opposing team and cap faster than they can res. This tactic is pretty fail, but works wonders if your playing something that kills really really fast and know how to pd reses.

You can split 2 - 3 ways.
This is pretty common, and almost the only way to win these maps. So what happens here.

Option A
Team defense takes ghost, and pokes at the bottom shrines while the offense splits and tried to grab as many shrines as it can. Generally everyone meets at the top and tests the other teams strength before splitting up.

Option B
Defense takes ghost to top shrine and offense explodes the other teams ghost that tried doing tactic A. Then splits with huge advantage over other team.

But, no matter which option you choose, to go to the top, or accross to the other team, after this has taken effect, you are in the same place you would be in regardless.

You split up

This also leads to situations where you can powerplay another group somewhere by having 2 of your offensive splits explode 1 of the splits of the other team, but generally you dont get the chance to do this without giving up a shrine somewhere else for 30 seconds to a minute.

Now, splitting up SHOULD mean that the course of the match is more affected by player skill than tactical calls. I wouldnt have a problem with cap points if this were the case. I would l2p guild wars if this were the case. But its not the case.

Cap points turn tombs into build wars more than any other objective in the game. Why? Because in a TEAM build, you design it to do several things in several situations.

Slotting a tainted necro for example, is because disease is decent pressure, and has room for lots of utility.

Slotting a Migraine mesmer for example, because you are playing hexgay and you like to camp a healer monk and watch the other team degen to death (zzzzZZZzzZZZzz).

Slotting a fire ele, because you want AoE pressure to force ppl off the center altar in HoH cap pts (different than 1v1 cap pts, not by much)

Slotting a ward v harm water ele, because you like to not die in aoe on HoH cap pts.

slotting a ... because you like to ...

In any case, you pick certain roles so your build can perform in those situations, now, lets go back to cap points. You split up, lets say you are a tainted necro. You were in unholy temples,probably one of the relic runners or a snare with ward foes. You were playing a role in HA, and won because you outplayed the opponent.

Now, you are on forgotten shrines, still a tainted necro, with whatever skills you used to win on unholy still on your bar. You split up from your team however you are told to do, and you find a thumper smashing your face in, and you die, because there is no way no matter how skilled you are as a tainted necromancer, that you are going to beat a thumper.

I can use the same example with you playing as a water ele, but have a migraine mesmer camping on you.

If you missed my point completly, a thumper or a migraine mesmer are stronger 1v1 templates than something that a balanced build generally runs should be. This means that the emphasis for winning in a skirmish on these maps is on RA level build wars than tactics.

So what does this mean for the balanced build? It means you either explode the opposing team really fast and take advantage of mistakes, or you get owned when you split up because your character templates arent designed for small battles like RA, and never could be.

Or, it means you change your build, lets all play eurospike and run bsurge eles, hex necros, and migraine mesmers, or whatever works in RA so we can win on cap pts yeye, but then we fail against someone that plays a proper HA build in HA on the other maps and never get fame. Crap.

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Now look in the HoH cap points map, which is a hell of a lot different than the 1v1 maps. The best method to win this, tried and true, is to hold your base, and the center altar. And people wonder why super ultra defensive builds are so meta... Your not going to survive on teh center altar without being super ultra defensive and slotting things like ward harm etc, your going to explode.

This means they are slotting ward harm to survive aoe, or are running multiple interupters to shut down as much of it as they can.

Your ONLY other option, if your not playing super ultra defensive crap, is to hold for as long as you can, or poke at thier back base, and try to force them off. But you have a proble, if that works. THeres a third team. Your probe to the holding teams base, will be stopped, and the holding team will lose the altar. But you wont be the one taking it. Its the other team. And guess what they are likely to have also. Super ultra defensive crap.

Whats the other option to winning if niether team are noob. (if one team is noob then they will gank someone, and you cross ur fingers its not you). Well, you hope the other team is dumb enough to be the one poking in the bases first so you can take center.

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Compare the two capture points, the tactics involved on them are mutually exclusive. One requires splitting, and individual builds/skill. The other requires slotting your build to survive a lot of punishment all at once. Trying to reach a middle ground just leaves your build full of fail, or results in you running lots of gay gimmicky crap.

-discuss

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edit, wow thats long, sorry

Ekelon · Feb 04, 2008, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Cap points are good. It requires the HA team to run a fairly balanced build that has snares and spike capabilities. It's one of those things put in there that basically help discourage gimmicky builds.

Besides, tactics are good. Even a team with a bad build can win if they have good tactics. It forces communication of the whole team, and really separates the r9+ players from the r3 players.

Edit: If you call me stupid or dumb and say I don't know what I'm talking about, back it up please because it makes you look stupid when you call me stupid without giving an explanation.

TaCktiX · Feb 04, 2008, 06:14 PM // 18:14

I definitely concur with the OP. I won't lie, I have Rank 5 Luxon and almost all of it was from straight AB, so I know my way around capturing points and splitting well. But any balanced build capable of running a good match at relic runs and standing a chance at altar-based maps like Courtyard and HoH is nearly incapable of outdoing a Spiritway at cap points. At least 3 of the people on the team have close-on-permanent speedbuffs and multiple KDs, and the rest are loaded with so much defense that they can stay alive through the moderate pressure a split-up balanced can muster. Did I mention that those same 3 Thumpers have heavy elemental resistance? Yeah, makes them capable of nearly ignoring AoE.

So the build that keeps on being nerfed and still won't go away is being all-but-sanctioned by the ArenaNet map design staff. Oh, the irony.

Killed u man · Feb 04, 2008, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekelon

Cap points are good. It requires the HA team to run a fairly balanced build that has snares and spike capabilities. It's one of those things put in there that basically help discourage gimmicky builds.

Besides, tactics are good. Even a team with a bad build can win if they have good tactics. It forces communication of the whole team, and really separates the r9+ players from the r3 players.

Don't post if you don't know what you're talking about IMO

In HB, this would have been 100% true, seeing how 1 person controls 4 characters. You have 1 mind thinking out strategy... However, when it comes down 8 People runnign around on 5 shrines, it is IMPOSSIBLE for the caller to call strategy. Gues what, I've been there... There is NO strategy going on, it's simply: Ok guys, don't be stupid, and try and cap a shrine.

There is many problems with capture points. Main one being the AoE = win. Snares BARELY matter, because if you sacrifice 1 Water ele to slow 1 guy down (Cuz face it, if 1 snare can catch 2 or 3 people with ice spikes, that team simply sucks), your team is down on 1 guy guy aswell. However, if you send him to snare the ghostly, than 1 water ele can take away 4 points on the enemy team. This however would require the waterele to either have an extra monk with him to stay alive OR the use of "wall bodyblocking" a Ghostly Hero, which, imo, is VERY gimmicky... (Upgrade AI gg kthxbai)

About the AoE = win, I've ran crazy buils with D/P with Spears etc, and gues what, teams with 1 Fire roll over us... The fact that you HAVE to ball up on a shrine with a +- Nearby radius works in the advantage of AoE. Not a little bit. It's actaully that bad that you simply CAN'T win from an equally skilled team with more AoE than you...

Back to my first point: The fact that you have 16 people on the map, each going whever they please to, makes it IMPOSSIBLE for the 2 callers on each team to decide strategy... On TOP of that, and you should know that Ekelon, you have NO clue what is going on outside Radar Range. "Coordination" you say? 8 people on vent shouting what the hell is going on is NOT exactly coordination... The MAIN (And Only) strategy I see atm, is send 1 person with ghostly to cap bottom ones, and the rets of the team top one, and whichever team has most AoE wins...

If they send 1 tumper back, you obviously send 1 person back aswell, however, if they send 2 or 3 people back, it, once again, is IMPOSSIBLE for a caller to decide in those 5-10 seconds you have Which 3 people you are going to send back. Simply because need a few seconds to realize WHAT those 3 people were. Were they 3 N/rt's? Then you obviously don't need to send a monk back. Were they 3 thumpers? Then you need to send someting back with enough defence, and gues what, bye now, your team either collapsed under the AoE, or one of the 12 other people on the map made "another" move. It simply is too fast-paced for 1 caller to decide what is going on.

I'm NOT saying this is a bad thing, I'm merely saying this does NOT promote balanced, this promotes the use of "gimmicky" builds that rely on AoE abuse, and the "solo"-survivaility of some retarded bars. (Thumper > All, N/Rt > More)

If you, or ANYONE says he has won a Capture points because of strategy, than all I can do is say: "I hope you will one day realize your ignorance". Because face it, it's HARDLY strategy, it's running around like chickens with their heads cut off...
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In HoH, However, it is different. Capture Points is a broken mechanic, because it, once again, is a 100% Victory for the team with the most AoE/AoE defence. Whenever you are observing HoH, you will see the same scenario going on: 3 teams fight for the center altar.
Now, let's build on different scenario's that might occure from here:

1) Blue Manages to Hold the Altar (Aka, they packed retarded ammounts of defence), now Blue will keep on getting +2's, whilst the other teams will stick with their +1's...
-Red OR Yellow now have 2 choices, Either keep fighting at center, thus ending up in a "easy" blue victory OR go cap another shrine.

1.1) Let's say they go for Blue's, than ALL blue has to do, is send EVERYONE back, this will end up in blue keeping their own shrine, the third team capping own + center, and the team that is actually trying to make the difference, get's left outside, with merely their own shrine still, ASSUMING the third team didn't send people to also cap their shrine, as a punishment for their attempt to win... This pretty much ALWAYS ends up in the team that decided to go cap blue shrine, to loose...
Now however it depends on the team that went for the blue base in the first place: Will they simply resign, thus ending up in a victory for the third team, seeying how they are left with 3 shrines, and blue only with 1, still recovering from the "gank", or will they simply go back for the center, which normally should still end up in third team victory, because they "should" be able to hold it OR will they go for red base now, ending up in Blue victory?
This very situation is retarded, because the way I just decribed it, this is the way it goes 85% of the time, the team that decides to go for a shrine, in a attempt to push blue of the altar, decides who they "gank" in the end.

1.2) Let's say they (The team that decides they should go for a shrine, because they can't push blue off) decide to go for the third team's base (Not blue), well then it's fairly simple and short, Blue wins... (Also Happens)

2) Let's assume Blue CANNOT hold altar, then they also have 2 choice, go for a different shrine, or simply try and stay and cap center.
Now you can pretty much Copy/Paste 1.1), 1.2) here, but from the Blue team's perspective.

Either way, As you see, just by the fact that I can so closely describe the way Capture Points works, is a sign that something is wrong. Once again, in HoH, the team that can stay alive longest on the center (Aka, has most AoE/retarded defence), wins... (Unless they get ganked, like I stated in scenario's)
This is unfair for certain teams that rely on the use of pressure (Condition or Hex), because they simply don't have the time to apply their pressure, because 4 fire eles will have whiped them out. By hexway, I do NOT mean Migraine, because it is OOOOH-SOOO hard to camp a monk, and poop interrupts...

Bottom Line, Capture Points WAS broken, IS broken and WILL ALWAYS be broken, no matter how many shrines you add. The ONLY aspect of PvP were it works (succesfully) is Hero Battles, because you have the correct shrines/people ratio ON top of a good "running"-distant between them. HB however is getting teased with one Lame assassin gimmick after the other. (And offc Shadowsteps)...

Kyp, I know you might disagree on this one, but no matter how you twist or turn it, Capture Points will never, In the least bit be fair/promote fair play, not to mention promote "balanced" balanced builds (Not AoE pooping) AND NEVER, repeat, NEVER be fun for the simple fact that it's always going to be the third "retarded" team that decides who wins...

Kyp Jade · Feb 04, 2008, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Kyp, I know you might disagree on this one, but no matter how you twist or turn it, Capture Points will never, In the least bit be fair/promote fair play, not to mention promote "balanced" balanced builds (Not AoE pooping) AND NEVER, repeat, NEVER be fun for the simple fact that it's always going to be the third "retarded" team that decides who wins...

You said what I said, just with bigger and more impressive words than I used

I completly agree that capture points doesnt work in practice for HA. In theory it was a nice idea, but in practice its just a retarded mechanic.

Selket · Feb 04, 2008, 06:44 PM // 18:44

The fact that there are multiple game types in HoH ensures that a single team has great difficulty continually winning.

A third team can gank you on any of the three game types, it doesn't make a difference. Its just easier on cap points because you can't control said ganking team's way of helping the enemy as easily.

Ekelon · Feb 04, 2008, 06:46 PM // 18:46

@Legally
Yes, I am saying that. Because it's true maybe? If you had 12 people on vent with AB, they would completely dominate the opposing team.

@Killed u man
Do you stalk me in these forums just to say I suck at the game or something? It's pretty dumb. You say I don't know anything I'm talking about, which is a blatant accusation. Well, I can be like you and say you don't know shit about Hero Battles, which is probably true, but I won't assume that just because I am a rationalized thinking person who tends to accept any possibility as part of the situation.

There are ways to shut down that AoE, and also ways to avoid that AoE and focus fire on every place else other than where that fire ele is. Don't give me try to give me a pep talk about cap point tactics, and don't call me stupid because your stupid for trying to say I don't know anything about cap points.

For the sole purpose of being able to make it farther with 1 build, I would say yes, eliminate cap points. But otherwise I argue the fact that it forces a more well-rounded build to be able to play Forgotten Shrines in addition to all the other maps.

Killed u man · Feb 04, 2008, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekelon

@Legally
Yes, I am saying that. Because it's true maybe? If you had 12 people on vent with AB, they would completely dominate the opposing team.

@Killed u man
Do you stalk me in these forums just to say I suck at the game or something? It's pretty dumb. You say I don't know anything I'm talking about, which is a blatant accusation. Well, I can be like you and say you don't know shit about Hero Battles, which is probably true, but I won't assume that just because I am a rationalized thinking person who tends to accept any possibility as part of the situation.

There are ways to shut down that AoE, and also ways to avoid that AoE and focus fire on every place else other than where that fire ele is. Don't give me try to give me a pep talk about cap point tactics, and don't call me stupid because your stupid for trying to say I don't know anything about cap points.

For the sole purpose of being able to make it farther with 1 build, I would say yes, eliminate cap points. But otherwise I argue the fact that it forces a more well-rounded build to be able to play Forgotten Shrines in addition to all the other maps.

R48 at HB, and unlike you, I CAN say, I don't abuse 1-2-3 retarded combo's...

On topic: There is ways to shutdown AoE? So you're telling me you're a fan of Migraine-way? Wait, a PD shutting down 4 fire eles in HoH? Gl...

1 on 1 Forgotten shrines? Gl shutting down Splinter, 2 fire eles, and whatever else they bring. By shutting down the fire, you bring them down to an level EQUAL of yours, so that still doesn't mean you win... But then again, I've seen what you run in HA, and from those observations, I think I'm arguing with a wall.

@Camping you in the forums: Gues what, there is mayby 100 people on this forum (PvP) that are somewhat active, so yeah, it happens that I post in the same thread as you. (Seeing how I play HB, RA/TA, AB and HA...)

Kyp Jade · Feb 04, 2008, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Its not just spiritway, but hexway and ranger spike all have strong 1v1 templates and split well.

With hexes you have shutdown and degen, so you win

With rangerspike, rangers are very survivable characters, and generally slot two interupts, so you win.

Spitiway, you crush ppl when they have horrid posistining such as forced in cap pts, so you win.

Three gimmicks, NOT balanced builds, all powerful on cap pts

Killed u man · Feb 04, 2008, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyp Jade

Its not just spiritway, but hexway and ranger spike all have strong 1v1 templates and split well.

With hexes you have shutdown and degen, so you win

With rangerspike, rangers are very survivable characters, and generally slot two interupts, so you win.

Spitiway, you crush ppl when they have horrid posistining such as forced in cap pts, so you win.

Three gimmicks, NOT balanced builds, all powerful on cap pts

That is what I call an understatement

elektra_lucia · Feb 04, 2008, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Uh, I don't find much tactics are needed for cap points :/.

Quote:

@Killed u man
Do you stalk me in these forums just to say I suck at the game or something? It's pretty dumb. You say I don't know anything I'm talking about, which is a blatant accusation. Well, I can be like you and say you don't know shit about Hero Battles, which is probably true, but I won't assume that just because I am a rationalized thinking person who tends to accept any possibility as part of the situation.

Pardon me but is he in the Hero Battles forum writing incorrect things as if they are correct? This question may sound rhetorical, it isn't. I haven't checked the HB forum. So if he is, then my mistake...

In addition, I think cap points could be ok EXCEPT it would have to be on the basis you remove some other objective... There's simply too much.

wuzzman · Feb 04, 2008, 07:31 PM // 19:31

lol, whoever thinks ranger spike or spiritway is strong when split up needs to have their brains examined....if having 3 monks + a snare is what makes you good at cap points then thats no more annoying then relic running. Its another "HAHA! We're soooo good at the game that we don't even need to know how to kill you!" type map. Its gay, it's annoying, but guess what your playing HA.

Kyp Jade · Feb 04, 2008, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Stick to priest maps wuzzman, they suit you.

And please, enlighten us how to take a tainted necro and have him survive vs a thumper, Im sure more than myself are interested in this great secret none of us know about.

And please, 1 ranger from rangerspike can both interupt, and kill the necro hexer from hexgay, just as he can interupt and take down a fire ele. Its played differently from teh straight up 8v8.

You dont need clean spikes to kill someone who is split up from his monks

wuzzman · Feb 04, 2008, 09:07 PM // 21:07

wtf are you talking about? Why the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO would a taint necro be trying to solo a thumper? Why is the rspike ranger skirmishing with the necro hexer? Do you even know what your talking about or are you making this idiotic thread about an idiotic mechanic because you get your ass scrubbed by AB noobs. Would it make you feel better if cap points had shiny golden relics to play with? Would you then know what your talking about then?

elektra_lucia · Feb 04, 2008, 10:19 PM // 22:19

Quote:

This might be why GvGers look down on HA.

I look down on GVG'ers too. I mean, look at it like this. When GVG'ers hadn't HA'd much and they attempted it, they failed. They failed miserably...

Now you look at a decent HA guild. sOap for example. Top in top 30 or so within a week or two (sure maybe a couple of members had GVG experience).

GVG'ers may look down on HA'ers, but the majority of GVG'ers are bad, they make no money from gaming and guildwars itself isn't a fine example of a game that supports competitive play... I think me and other members from my eurocup/cpl teams from other games would all have a laugh at GVG'ers once they took a look at the game =D.

ogrim doomhammer · Feb 04, 2008, 10:58 PM // 22:58

cap points are fine just stop being bad and learn to split / snare.. need to do something about the gank factor though.... ( dont ask me how because i dont know or i would have suggested it..)

TheHaxor · Feb 04, 2008, 11:01 PM // 23:01

I've always felt that the 1v1 cap points maps before halls feel utterly skill-less. The few strategies out there are really simple. Build advantages for cap points are highly pronounced on cap points. However, the biggest problem I have with them is that they are nothing like cap points in halls. At the very least make the mechanism resemble the halls mechanism.

I don't really like cap points in halls either. The biggest problem I find is that there is usually one team that doesn't know how to play the map very well and usually ends up inadvertently causing another team to lose because of it. The halls version is a lot less noob friendly than the 1v1 maps. Ganking is also pretty easy to pull off on cap points.

Divinus Stella · Feb 05, 2008, 01:30 AM // 01:30

I actually enjoy cap points, if you have good team synergy then its a certain win.

It is a pug killer map, especially when you have a couple of bad players that cant make their own decisions who just flail around waiting for their fearless leader to shout something at them.

I think the best part about the map is that its not something that people really prep for so its purely down to making the best of what you have, rather than having your build pull you through.
Its the same with relic runs, its great when neither team has much prep, but when people pack a foes and a snaring character in for those maps it removes a lot of the fun for me.

Son Of The Axe · Feb 05, 2008, 01:45 AM // 01:45

Hmmm well so far it looks like most of the community is in a agreement about Forgotten Shrines.

Its truly a crap shoot to play there, where Chaos and loud screams over vent run rampant. A map that is nether fun nor purposeful = take it out!

Divinus Stella · Feb 05, 2008, 01:56 AM // 01:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Son Of The Axe

Hmmm well so far it looks like most of the community is in a agreement about Forgotten Shrines.

Its truly a crap shoot to play there, where Chaos and loud screams over vent run rampant. A map that is nether fun nor purposeful = take it out!

Chaos and rage on vent isnt a shortfall of map design......